Broadside Balladeer: An Interview with English Singer Jennifer Reid

In this episode of "What Dreamers Do," host Carla Gover sits down with the talented and multipassionate Jennifer Reid, a researcher, presenter, educator, performer and provocateur. 

In her lovely Northern Accent, we get a glimpse of Jennifer's work, as she takes us on a journey through the various art forms that she uses to highlight working-class issues past and present and connect audiences to their heritage through the captivating world of Lancashire dialect songs.  She even sings a sample of the  North Manchester song "The Weaver of Wellbrook." She sheds light on the importance of oral tradition in preserving and passing down these songs, with special attention to the rhythm of the hand loom that echoes through the music. 

The conversation then delves into the broader context of ballads in industrialization-era slums and their societal roles as they evolved. Jennifer shares her experiences teaching art and music, and the joy she finds in live performances, adapting her set lists to match the atmosphere of the room. 

We learn about Jennifer's vast repertoire, and how she carries a box of 300 songs to cater to different preferences, even tailoring songs to specific locations. She touches on the healing power of live music as a form of medicine, and how she chooses songs for audience members based on their needs.

The conversation takes an intriguing turn as Carla and Jennifer discuss the fascinating world of street hawkers selling ballads, and the historical importance of these sellers in reminding Irish workers of home. We gain insights into Jennifer's acting career, including her role in a critically acclaimed period drama directed by Shane Meadows featuring her improvisation of 1700s songs.

The two move on to discuss Lancashire clogging and singing, and Jennifer's journey into 19th-century print culture while volunteering at Chetman's Library in Manchester. We delve into the significance of folk ballads and using music as a powerful tool for social change. Jennifer shares stories, knowledge, and her knowledge about broadside ballads and the importance of preserving folk traditions.

The episode concludes with a sneak peek into Jennifer's future plans, possible performances in the UK and the United States, and an invitation to visit her recently updated website for more information and music.

Jennifer's Website

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Transcript

Carla: 0:38

All right. Welcome dreamers. I'm really happy to be here today doing an interview. It's kind of strange, uh, time for me because I'm sleep deprived. I've just flown across the Atlantic and I have had very little sleep, and I'm sitting in a van with Ballad Singer and Clogger, Jennifer Reed from Northern Manchester, and we're gonna learn. A lot more about all of the cool and interesting musical and dance related and ballad related projects that she does. So thanks so much for being here with us and You're welcome. Letting me hang out in your van today and interview you.

Jennifer: 1:17

Yeah, that's cool. Thank you for coming all the way across the Atlantic.

Carla: 1:20

Well, I'm, I'm excited to be here. We are in, Cambridge, by the way, home of a somewhat famous school. Mm-hmm. And it's really lovely and, it's interesting to be, In this little home on wheels. so maybe that would be a good place to start is just talking about, you know, how you came to live in this van and, how that. Serves your creative life. Mm-hmm. So, uh,

Jennifer: 1:45

I used to live in a place called Tomon, which is now kind of up and coming. There's a lot of cool, good looking graphic designer types moving there, which may or may not have had something to do with the way I had to get out. but we love Tomon for all it is. And I did some acting, Shane Meadows did a period drama. Which is now critically acclaimed, I'm supposed to say all the time. It's based in the 17 hundreds, around the crag Vale coins, which were a gang of, which was mainly a family. And then they had like other outlying, members of the gang who used to clip coins. And they eventually almost flooded the economy of England. And the tax man came and kind of got them and hung all the Maine. Cool ones. so that's what the, the drama is about. It's called the gallows pole. And I was cast as the landlady, very luckily. And, I made the landlady sing'cause it was all improvised. So I sing like 1700 songs. I musically directed the wake scene in the first episode. it's called the gallows pole, the, the drama. so yeah, You know, that furnished me with a little bit of cash. Okay. To then up sticks to Sheffield and, buy a van to live in. And then from then I've just kind of been quite mobile. So if I get work, say in Preston, I can stop over in Preston for the night and then take a jaunt down to Cambridge, for example, to meet. Cool people and then like drive back in the evening or, it just means I've got a bit more flexibility and it also means that I probably have to do more festivals now, which I am still coming to terms with the idea

Carla: 3:23

you're obliged to now. Yeah, but I love the fact that, even though I know there are probably times when it's not easy to make a decision that bucks so many social norms, it seems like a really bold move in service of. Following your creative muse. Mm-hmm. And that takes a lot of courage. So hats off. Thank you about that. And it kind of speaks to something we were chatting about earlier in terms of how one thing that you and I have in common, and by the way, folks we met over the internet, you know, mutual friends introduced us. Like you guys need to know each other. And, one of the things that we have in common as an interest is folk ballads. Music of the people, music that's used, as a tool for social change and social justice and the ways that we can, uncover our history, cultural history through studying the music. And so one thing that I thought, you had some interesting thoughts about was, the way that we now have a tendency to. Leave the singing to the ultra ultra professionals when really singing and dancing and all of these folk traditions are meant for all of us to do them. Mm-hmm. So do you do workshops? How do you approach that or how do you address that in your performances, in your teaching? So the people

Jennifer: 4:48

that I work with, Almost always have a, diminished sense of identity. Whether that be just from living in the world that we are living in right now or growing up in it. Everyone can find another aspect of their identity when I bring this material to them. The material in question. So when the material that I'm talking about is 19th century broadside ballads, usually because they're quite visual as opposed to the songs in dialect, which are of the oral tradition, which are kind of mentally visual, but I need to kind of draw them in first. So this whole kind of print tradition is very handy because they've got wood woodcuts. The texts are. Kind of interesting. When I speak about printing, my friend who's a printer has furnished me with quite a few printing facts and a few printing phrases, so that kind of makes it sound like I know what I'm talking about. And then when people use the. Songs that I put in front of them. So I usually try and prescribe them stuff. So if there's a woman from Oldham, I'll say, okay, I've got three songs about Oldham. What type of thing are you interested in? And she'll say, social justice, or like protests, like around about the 18 hundreds. So I'll be like, cool, I've got this perfect song for you. Or if they're just interested in DAF stuff, I'll be like, here's one. An Odom chap visits the Queen, and they get on like a house on fire. Yeah, everything were fun and glee and laughed at all at Audo and actually folk were all like me, has happened to come from Adom apparently that's what the Queen said and I doubt it. So, people find themselves in these songs and then they start to get really interested and then when they realize that they're allowed tossing them, that's when this stuff really takes shape and it's just

Carla: 6:29

exciting. Well, just because I think some of my listeners might not know, can you give a brief description of what is a broadside ballad? Mm-hmm. A

Jennifer: 6:38

broadside ballad is, do you have blue roll in the United States? That doesn't ring a bell. It's like kitchen roll for bars, but it's a blue color. I think I've seen that. Do you have in toilets, do you have like the blue long paper that you can like pull out of the, I

Carla: 6:54

think they have that moist, expensive service

Jennifer: 6:56

stations. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's very low brow. Mm-hmm. So that kind of texture, bad toilet paper texture almost see-through and very rough is pretty much what broadside ballad paper was like. That's what they felt like. So they were. By their very design and by their nature, we're not meant to last. So the fact that we have so many in collections in England and in America and loads of other places is quite amazing. But then of course, we are always at the mercy of collectors for what they chose to preserve in their collections. Mm-hmm. So, In Oldham, for example, in the local studies library, there's loads of Orangeman ballads, which obviously isn't very, you know, everyone's street. Especially with you going to Ireland. I'm sure they'd have something to say about that. So again, if you're not really interested in that, and we're looking for a history of Oldham, but then you've been kind of sidelined into this collector eye view. That's when you've gotta be careful. so anyway, broadside ballads are usually around about, a four size, maybe even double that. They have the title at the top. Sometimes it says as sung by someone, which is quite rare. Or the printer's name, sometimes the printer's name has been scratched out so that the hawker can sell it in other counties without being detected. Mm-hmm. If it didn't sell so well in Manchester to scratch the printer's name out. When you get to Nottingham, just say it was printed this morning and see if it sells any quicker. Um, so I appreciate the del Boy nature of, uh, of ballads. It's very hit or miss. And then they've usually got around 12 to 18 verses. The old English ones from the 16 hundreds are a bit longer, and I did once try to sing those hungover in the bodily library and didn't get invited back. Would you believe it? But I can give you an example of a ballad if you would like. Okay, sure, yeah. Sing you with just a little short one. I've offered why I offered. That's a good one. Maybe I'll do Victoria Bridge on a Saturday night. That's quite a good example of the valley. So, Whoever may travel or Manchester gravel will see many things to astonish his sight, but sure, he must notice whether his court is Victoria Bridge on a Saturday night, so running and rushing such joslyn and pushing it. Looters or Babel had settled through spite or rode to go. One or two is aboard on Victoria Bridge on a Saturday night. If you trouble with physics, they're adopted with physics. Their lozenges, boluses, poppies, and pills with ointment meant for drawing and back. Turing will blister your chops. See red in the gills. There's snuffy noses and selfie tos and poultry and pigs. Pickle pork and police with porkers and fenders and newspaper vendors and strip for black puddings, a penny a piece. That's kind of how they go.

Carla: 9:22

It reminds me of, Gilbert and

Jennifer: 9:23

Sullivan. Totally. Like you can see where the music hall comes in. That's right. And then it builds up into like celebrity and then you totally lose folk art and traditions and that's why we're put on earth to

Carla: 9:34

rectify that. Yeah. So this was a tradition that was born as a folk movement. It was something that the people participated in and it was something that everybody. It could be a part of, and you didn't have to be on American Idol or whatever. Yeah,

Jennifer: 9:49

yeah, absolutely. To sing them. Absolutely. Like the, the songs written by, I mean, a lot of the Lancashire dialect poems were turned into songs'cause a lot of them were written, just as poetry. But, there's a fair few songs out of them as well. So, for example, I mean, I'm searching for it in my book, but it's just a crutch. I know it off by heart. So the weaver of, well, Brook. which is from North Manchester Failsworth area. That's all about being a weaver. And it mentions like work dialect in it. And this is kind of more in the oral tradition'cause this would've been passed down in that way. And it has the rhythm of the hand loom when you sing it. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of handy as well to keep you in on time, but also kind of adds to the, you know, the feeling you're getting.'cause when it's the, the oral tradition, it's all bodily and. Feeling based when it's the print tradition in the city, you're overhearing it. You're on your way to work, you're busy with other stuff. You know, it's the start of like industrialization. It hits a bit differently than if you heard this, you know, down the pub on a Tuesday evening after handling weaving all day after seeing your wife for quite a bit and chatting and sorting everything out, and your kids came in. Then you went to the pub. It's just a different, more homely feeling. But the homely feeling was what was trying to be sold to people through the broadside ballads when they went to the cities to live in the slums. With

Carla: 12:21

industrialization. Yeah. So it began, to get a little bit more cerebral with the broadside ballads versus just like the really visceral experience of the oral tradition. Mm-hmm. Well, I like that you, you know, talking about the weaving because I know that's something else that you've focused on. You are a weaver. Do I understand that correctly?

Jennifer: 12:42

I can weave, I do, I weave on, More like a, a handheld loom. So they're more like a, a five size little loom. Mm-hmm. And I love to do workshops with people'cause you never know what's gonna come out. Some people just do straight lines and immediately I tell them like, it's not made of glass, you can move it up and down and stuff. Mm-hmm. And then other people just get straight in there and put like pipe cleaners hanging off the end of it and like sweets wrappers and it looks really cool. Um, so it is interesting to see what abstract things people are, are willing to share on, on the

Carla: 13:10

loo. So do you do workshops that are a mix of, music and weaving, or, they usually

Jennifer: 13:16

always work out that way because I can't help. But if we're weaving and then we're talking about weaving and then I'll kind of like sing a weaving song to just kind of on the lower end, let people, cosplay being a weaver mm-hmm. On the higher end, invite people into the beautiful, visceral, amazing experience of being a weaver and singing weaving songs and all that comes with it.

Carla: 13:40

So we know that you, you know, have this appreciation for, you know, bringing the music to the people and illuminating the history and sort of the power to the people aspect of this kind of music. Mm-hmm. What are some of your other artistic goals, you know, that you have for yourself in whatever realm? Whether it be more acting or. More, more singing or more teaching. Mm-hmm. What kinds of things are you working on? So my

Jennifer: 14:05

hero is Fred Diner. You ever heard of Fred Diner? I don't

Carla: 14:09

think so.

Jennifer: 14:09

Oh, so he was a steeple jack from Bolton, which means that he pulled down chimneys. And like climbed up really high on tops of buildings and stuff. And he ended up being, it was just like a self, I don't know, I don't know how self-taught he was, but a lot of the language dialect, authors were self-taught, which is why I always banned that phrase about,'cause I fancy myself as self-taught as well. Mm-hmm. Because it's more, I am total antique and like, I'm a hobbyist in this, but I've become an expert just through Uhhuh being obsessed with it. but Fred Diner was essentially a steeple jack and then he got his own TV show'cause people found him friendly and then he ended up, Speaking about the industrial Revolution through like steam engines. I think he sunk a mineshaft in his garden. Like he, he was no joke. He was great guy. Really funny guy. Um, big hero in Bolton. Really. He's died now. Um, but I kind of wanna be that person that you can't say that I don't know what I'm talking about. And I ha I like, I, I feel respected for all the time and effort that I've put in. And I just feel good about. Ballads. You know, I feel like I've dedicated my life to the right cause I'm getting pretty well known with it and it feels cool that that's what I really appreciate that.'cause after, I did the drama, Trad folk, which is one of like the big magazines. I've never really courted them. But then again, why would I? Mm-hmm. And one of the guys, a guy called John Wilkes, wrote about my performance in the gallows pole and wrote about all the songs that I chose and like the time period of it. And it was just so validating. I called him up personally to thank him. I just went, thank you so much. Because I, you always feel like your like, imposter syndrome is rife, but it was really, really cool to like, Pack those anxieties into a little bag and go, only took 13 years to get rid of those. Nice.

Carla: 15:51

It is it, yeah. Recognition or validation for what you're doing and, and peer recognition is another one. I think that's especially sweet.

Jennifer: 15:58

Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. So I try and work in that respect. So I try and share what I can, in terms of like workshops, singing, weaving, painting, clogging, banner making, All of the above with children through to people with dementia. I love to do singing with people with dementia. It's cool. My dad's got dementia, so I'm trying to surround myself with it as opposed to totally run away from it. Mm-hmm. It's important that I must face his head on to be the best that I can be for my dad. and then, yeah, plug in. I'd like to come to America. That is a big one for me. I wanna meet Ballad singers in America. I wanna meet Cloggers, I wanna meet flat footers. I wanna meet everyone in America. Can you make that happen?

Carla: 16:36

I can certainly help you. which, that we should speak a little bit about that. I haven't really, we haven't talked about your, your dancing, so. Mm-hmm. Um, I'd be interested to hear. What got you into the Lancaster clogging traditions and, and even the singing, like if mm-hmm. If it's something from your family or your community or how it all came about.

Jennifer: 16:56

Yeah. It's nothing to do with family or community at all. Okay. I just had a all them tinker CD when I was younger and I just got obsessed with it'cause it was just really, really funny and silly songs. Mm-hmm. And I thought, these are fantastic. And then, I went away to Barcelona, I came back and then I volunteered at Chetham's Library in Manchester, which people know as like the Harry Potter Library, because it looks like Harry Potter, but I think it's the first Eng Li. It's either the first library in the English speaking world, or the first English speaking library in the world. I can't remember which. I think it was set up in like the 14 hundreds. So that's why it's got the Harry Potter vibe. Mm-hmm. But it's a fantastic place. And Michael, who was the librarian at the time, he had a ponant for 19th century print culture. So, As a result, he kind of indoctrinated me into the ways I see. so I just started digitizing some ballads and then after that I kind of got obsessed with them.'cause I started to see place names come up and, you know, funny little bits of dialects and I thought, oh my God, how have these been like trapped in this box for so long? And why is no one using them, you know? And yeah, my dancing. So I learned from the Lan shirt opers. I learned from Harry Cowgill in Fleetwood, a school in Fleetwood, I think, where they hired it out for the Opers weekend, many, many years ago. And I just thought I needed another string to my bow. Like I can sing, I could tap dance back in the day when I was younger. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So let's switch it into clogging and then I can give people the full experience because I know that I can deliver quality. So let's do it. So then cost a, it costs like 50 quid to go to this. Session. Mm-hmm. And it was over two days, and because I'm so tight, I practiced every single day for a year. After that, I learned it, and then now it's ingrained in my head and will never go. Away. So, I got my money's worth is what I'm trying to say there, but I learned Sam Sherry's Intermediate Waltz, the main eight steps. I think there's 12 or 13 in total. I might be wrong on that, but I learned the main eight or the ones that I consider the main eight. It's just so contentious, clogging. I don't dunno what to say. I don't. Don't wanna get it wrong. so yeah, his, his steps, he w it became to be like the head of like Lancashire clog in people's minds, but he wasn't necessarily from Lancashire and he kind of grew up in the music hall tradition, but his name has become synonymous with that Lancaster sound.

Carla: 19:04

So just a little bit of a. Clogging nerd out question here. Mm-hmm. Do you only do waltz clog or do you do some four four

Jennifer: 19:13

stuff too? I only do waltz clog, but that is a cry for help saying, please teach me other ways, because, I learned that clogged down so that when I went to Venice, I sang at the Venice Ian Alley in 2015 and the opening week in the Ardini, and I clogged, danced, and sang. And I thought, this is really gonna, you know, it's such a rich, luxurious environment and I wanted to bring everyone back down. And I made few people cry, which I felt really good about.

Carla: 19:40

Yeah, that's funny. That's what, uh, that's like a songwriter or singer, an artist. That's your mark of success. I made him cry. Yay. Which is, sounds kind of crazy to say, but I feel that way too. Yes. well, another thing that we were talking about, which I think is interesting, and maybe it speaks to like gatekeepers of traditional culture and, and gatekeepers of, those who think that traditional and folk music should be performed. With a particular look in a particular way. But, I know that you don't play to those stereotypes of what a ballad singer is, quote unquote, supposed to look like. Folks, she's got some ink, you know, she just, she has a couple piercings. Very cool hip looking. No corsets, right? No.

Jennifer: 20:28

Yeah. I don't wanna sing in a corset. Please, dear God, don't make me do period dress. God. I just think I just, yeah, I kind of play on it now where I'm like, okay, I've come to you in full period dress. You know, I'm wearing a, the same clothes I've been wearing for five days and it's just a charity shop, pair of shorts, an overpriced Tommy Hilfiger shirt and a, a little top that I found in a bag on the street. You know, it's nothing. Maybe that is, I mean that's quite Ballad singer of me though, I suppose, minus the Tommy Hilfiger aspect. But yeah, I just try and be my authentic self, which is now a cringey, Instagrammable phrase, but I'm just trying to be like, my passion is, is I can't, it's undeniable. I can't help but let it shine through. So if you don't leave my performance thinking that you've been harassed by a ballad singer, then I've lost it. But until now, I don't think I have.

Carla: 21:21

Well, I think it's just, you know, obviously it's something that we deal with. As Appalachian musicians too, you know, a lot of times there's a certain look that people think that we're supposed to have or a certain kind of outfit that you know you're supposed to wear. Mm-hmm. And maybe it's just that performers throughout history have always had to ask themselves some interesting questions about where do I draw the line between honoring the traditions that I learned? And doing something that I can make a living at on stage. Mm-hmm. And like sometimes people even take it into the realm of self caricature in order to make a living, because sometimes that's what sells, unfortunately. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And for me it's always just like this interesting dance of, you know, authenticity versus being yourself and what does it all mean. But I, you, you mentioned something about, some of the historical. People who performed these broadside ballads, what did you call them? You had a name for'em? Hawkers. The

22:21

Hawkers.

Jennifer: 22:21

Hawkers, yeah, so there's the, the Long Song Seller, which is in May Hughes, London. Um, and he's got all the street Hawkers in the, in the book. And the, the long Song Cellar is the, the ballad guy. And he's got like, a top hat on. But you know, when you see on cartoons where it's like a top hat, but it's as if you've undone like a kind of beans and that it's flapping off at the top. He's like that kind of thing. And, you know, he looks down on his look, he looks grumpy in the picture, and he's got like a big stick with a big toilet roll of ballads on him. Like he pulls him down and it says, two 50 for a Fadi. And yeah, the hawkers themselves were very down at heel, you know, probably on their last legs, but the way that they were selling. This to you meant that you came back to them. So they had a certain charm, which might not necessarily be their singing voice, but you know, their, themes that they were covering or where they stood or the tune they put to it, or, you know, the three tunes they'd just sang in succession over the past three weeks. Like it could be literally anything. That really, elevates their selling capacity.'cause again, ballads were made to be sold. You know, the, the oral tradition songs, they were made to be passed down and enrich life. And the ballads were, you know, overheard, like, there's so many Irish ballads in the Manchester collections because of Angel metal, the slum. Mm-hmm. And, so the, the printers were trying to sell Irish ballads to Irish, workers to remind them of home, you know, to kind of put like, play on their heartstrings kind of thing. So, again, like the ballads are business, so they're a bit more devoid, but that's what makes the sellers so interesting because there's all these different contextual things going on, but then they're still stood on a street corner, probably with one leg, leaning on a bit of a crutch, singing out. I kind, I hope a rude song.

Carla: 24:12

It's, it's really interesting. I feel like there's a whole entire other podcast we could have comparing some of these commercialization traditions, you know, dance Hall, vaudeville, minstrel sea. Mm-hmm. You know, some of the darker and more unsavory parts of the history of, you know, what came out of folk traditions. Mm-hmm. In large measure, but, have, have evolved into to so many other things, but, Like you, I also, just to bring it back home, really appreciate, taking a peek at the roots, going back to the roots, to what is sometimes extrapolation about the early history of the styles. Because for instance, in Appalachia, where I'm from, I didn't even realize until I was in my teens that oh, Part of this music is coming from the African American tradition because nobody ever talked about it. I mean, yeah, it's a banjo for crying out loud, the whole instrument came from Africa. Mm-hmm. and part of it came from indigenous Native American traditions of, of music and dance. but it kind of, it wasn't talked about. And so when we go back now and we have to try to sort of piece it together, almost like musical archeologists, but. I, I also love to examine these roots, and so you guys, I'm looking at this stack. She's got a box of ballads and these cool prints and old broadsides and these old, you know, old print, from old presses and whatnot. So I hope that wherever you are, you'll get a chance to listen to her or see her perform, whether in the UK or. In the United States, which there's rumor that you're gonna be coming in 2024, but if people wanna listen to some of your stuff or learn more about you now, what's a good place? So my

Jennifer: 26:01

website, which I've just done up of fancy, shiny red. All right, uh, so it's Jennifer Ballads. Dot com. How hard is that to remember? And then I'm also on Instagram and that's Jennifer Ballards with two S's. I did have the original Jennifer Ballard's account, but then I forgot the password. So no, have to add another Ss. I know I'm so stupid. I'm a branding nightmare. And that's got all pictures of my workshops. I've recently been lead artist for a plant pot festival making loads of sculptures outta plant pots, and I've. Felt flower, potty. I felt crazy after it. But finally, installed them all on Monday and, Then it started raining and I drove past, kind of like with one eye open, hoping that we'd all still be there and they're all still there. They haven't flown away or anything, so that's cool. Um, so that's Instagram on, I'm on Twitter as well as Jennifer Reed. I think my website's probably the best place. It's got all the best links and videos. And I'm on Spotify as well, but my recorded stuff on Spotify, I just, I'm not. Renouncing all recording as bad, but for me it's all about the performance. It's all about being there. It's all about assessing the vibe in the room. It's all about overhearing conversations at the bar and then changing my set list like five different times to accommodate everyone. You know, like there's a woman in Halifax talking about a canal boat, and that's why I bring like a. I've got my box of ballads. I've got maybe 300 songs in here. That's why I bring everything, because then I can be like, oh my God, yeah, I'll do that song and she'll like it. Or you know, I'll say, oh my God, I overheard you say this. Look, I've got this song for you. Or Where are you from again? I've got this song. From there it's musical prescriptions. Whole musical prescription. Yeah. Yeah. You will musical medicine. Yeah. Yeah. You'll feel better after this. But yeah, so the, I've got recorded stuff on Spotify is what I'm trying to say, but, I also don't necessarily value recording as a medium at this current juncture. I much prefer to perform, but you can see videos of me online doing that. There's one of me in Preston Market, which you might get a kick out of. Nice.

Carla: 27:57

Well, since this show is called What Dreamers Do and it's about creativity and all of us finding our creativity, do you have any kind of advice that you would give? Just about living a creative life. Mm-hmm.'cause everybody does it differently.

Jennifer: 28:12

keep your head down and keep going. Keep going all the time. Even when you feel like you're not doing out. You, you are, you're doing it all. If you're not doing the outdoor work, you're doing the mental work, you're doing the undoing, all that crazy knotted up trauma in your body work. You're doing it all the time. You just don't realize And creativity, remember, it's fun. I always have to remember that this stuff is fun. It's not work. It's not, it's meant to be fun. Yeah. It's not work really. Is it? Like I'm stressing out about, oh my God, on my plant pot installation, is it gonna last? Like, for God's sake, it's hardly the stock market is it? But I you, yeah. When you get in a creative hole, look after yourself. Do face masks, do things like that that kind of like, bring yourself worth up a tiny little bit. Give yourself a rest for three days where you think about absolutely nothing. Watch SpongeBob for three days on the Trott and clear your brain and then when little things will start coming back to you and you'll think, right, it's, it's just, you've just gotta keep stopping and starting. But always remember that you're on with it.

Carla: 29:14

I love it. Cool. I love it. Well, thank you so much. Mm-hmm. for the great advice and also for taking the time to chat with me and for driving all the way down and meeting me in a parking lot in Cambridge. And hopefully next time we'll get a longer visit and we'll get to make some music. Thank you guys for listening. Be sure to look up Jennifer and we'll see you soon. Bye.